powerbalancing without being too restrictive?

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I'm not sure if this is in the right area (so if not, do let me know and I can change where I place it!), but it's a question that's been bugging me for awhile when I look at some character apps, profiles, etc. in the sites I manage, are interested in, etc. But for sites that tend to follow no systems whatsoever for combat (i.e. no HP system, skills-system, what have you) — how do you powerbalance? Or, I guess, how do you set the players' limits of how far their character can go at the beginning in terms of prowess without completely turning them off? It's a delicate balance I'm kind of in a huge thonk.gif in.

A lot of recent characters I've had to read through, plot with, etc. have all started to veer outside the sphere of "grounded / realistic limits" to me. Like, they make sense in theory—there's enough explanation for why they would be this super smart brilliant second-coming of Jackie Chan while being an excellent sniper, highly attractive person, etc (i.e. familial upbringing, military history, years of experience, so on). Buuuuut, I don't know. When I write characters I tend to have them specialize in one thing above all else, like it's a video game (like one is more brains than brawn, another is silver-tongued but can't fight for shit, one is a brilliant fighter but god help them if they have to be pleasant to people or navigate a social situation, etc.) so I guess it's a bit of a culture-shock to me, as a staffer, when I review profiles I know that I wouldn't let myself write as a player. I like their concept and such, but I do think there's still a level of too much sometimes.

But at the same time, a part of me thinks that there should still be limits imposed. It becomes especially more apparent to me when I see these characters considered on pedestals equal to, say, site canons. When they aren't connected or would be considered a site canon. Would that undermine the greater plot somehow, reduce the rank / prestige a canon is supposed to have, etc.? How can I go about this?

Tl;dr — how do you deal with, manage, or review characters that you think would be too OP even if they have qualified reasons for the strength IC, without discouraging the player from making the character?
last edit on Dec 8, 2020 17:54:25 GMT by CEL



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I think a little more context could be nice so... 's referring to a site we're on, which is less of a shounen site (or ie combat being ingrained into the site) and more modern slice of life that leans on political intrigue.

On our site, the canons are in positions of power, being the "top dog" of their hierarchy and they are written intended to be either wealthy, powerful, influential, or a mixture of all three.

Lately we've run into a problem where the community apps a lot of characters that rival this: being in a position of wealth, power, and influence to where it makes them a viable threat against a canon. Now, this is fine but there certainly gets to a point where every character is a wealthy, former noble/royal CEO with underground and political connections in the city, and is a master of 10 martial arts and can rival Anne Oakley's shootsharping because they were originally a super solider spy or whatever else is too much lmao. And this is somewhat how it feels. We want a little more... normal people? Less of the "was former English nobility and infinitely wealthy with vast connections" or "former super soldier" types. Characters that aren't threats for the sake of being threats, especially when it comes to canons who are our established powerhouses.

We can certainly say no to these characters (and we are thinking on restricting them). But the problem that arises with it is stifling what people want or coming off too authoritarian, at least imo. These characters make some sense in their setting, and it's for the sake of powerbalancing that we want to say no but in a member's eyes would that really seem fair? That they can't have their idea because, say, Susie and Mary -- who are apart of the same friend group and have x amount of plots together -- has 5 of the above types for their ocs.

Personally I'm not into fighting with someone or overhearing that they have a problem with me because they can't have their 5th super soldier or shady Christian Grey. And that is not to say I don't get it. I accept knowing I'm not going to get along with everyone's ideas, that's fine with me; it's when it tips into starting drama is what gets me to nope out of staffing or even wanting to be on my site bc lmao I'm too tired to get into some petty hs drama for the nth time when all I want to do is write and geek out with my members over plots & threads.

But yeah, that's the dilemma we have at the moment and it feels... really difficult to sort out without it becoming "this site is too stifling!!" vibe.

Would you guys say to apply the whole restriction to it, as a means of trying to divide out these types of characters?
last edit on Jan 1, 2021 4:19:49 GMT by Deleted
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Regardless of what you guys decide, do you think you could bring up the issue with the community and gauge what they think? They might be able to offer ideas of their own? Just be clear that you guys aren't obligated to follow anything they suggest. It's your show after all, the staff runs it all, doing all the heavy lifting in the end. In all my years in the rp community I've definitely learned that we can't please everyone, and it's best to keep things chill/easy/fun for staff. Staff is the one doing all the work, right? [break][break]

I like to take ideas from white-wolf's world of darkness, in this case their flaws and merits system. They have something a bit more complicated, but you could simplify it with simply having a max number of merits on character creation but a mandatory 1 flaw for each merit. They should be of equal value in the staff's eyes.[break][break]

Not an easy fix, but here are some examples from a list of merits and flaws from the game along with their cost.
[break][break]
I hope this suggestion helps, and that I understood it all correctly. Maybe this might spark an idea to help you guys with the issue.

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more context for the situation definitely helped since uh. it pushed me into deciding to stick my head in with my two cents.

which is that........ unfortunately, i really don't think there's going to be a lot you can do about it.

part of it is just. the inherent nature of rp. most people tend to want to play characters who aren't normal, and it's not really hard to understand why - at the end of the day, rping is telling a story, and when just about every single story we hear features a character with some kind of ~specialness~, imo, ofc most people aren't going to be interested in playing your average joe schmoe the office worker. especially not when rp is an escapist fantasy for so many people, which means it's v attractive to play someone ~special~ over the average, ordinary, everyday folk they are.

part of it is the fact that well. "normal" characters don't tend to get the same support or attention on rp sites. since i mean. if you have a game of thrones site and you make your average commoner of king's landing when everyone else has the various lords and ladies of the realms, imo, it's going to be really hard to get plots for your commoner if you don't have a reason to interject them into the spaces those lords and ladies occupy. it's also a lot harder to find want ads for those "normal" characters that are worth filling - the vast majority of the time, the requests tend to be pretty hard to plot outside of those ads and/or end up with a character that's basically a glorified npc. which both of these facts hit all the harder when you start factoring in activity requirements - since imo if you're constantly struggling to get that one post a month you need to stay active on a character and it feels like pulling teeth to get any interest in them, it's not really incentive to want to keep them / stick around on the site.

part of it is also your community - from the way y'all talked about the situation, it sounds like "not-normal" characters are the norm on the site / "normal" characters are not really valued half as much. and that's in and of itself going to be a problem, because you're not wrong in saying that it's not really fair to put restrictions in place for newbies to live by when the problem is much more the established members but also because, well, "like attracts like", so to an extent, when that's the atmosphere on the site, you're going to attract more of them, not less, especially if the circumstances are not hospitable to getting the opposite (in other words, if i'm running a slice-of-life site and i have 10 different gangs running around the city in various formats, i'm probably gonna have a hard time discouraging more gang members and/or encouraging more cops + civilians).

you might be able to make some headway by trying to actively encourage + support those "normal" characters (award "bonus" site currency to members who make them, go out of your way to try to plot with them, give them high-quality plots that make them want to stick around), but unfortunately, there's just....... not a whole lot you can do by this point since the "solution" is more shifting the entire community vibe than it is anything else, and to a certain extent, that's probably gonna be difficult just because of what you are (a modern slice-of-life site with political intrigue).

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spitballing in list bc lazy:

-> imo as Someone Who Has Absolutely Never Staffed And Never Will, "look, our canons need to be the most powerful/influential/whatever characters on site for the plot to function properly, so you should read the bios of established canon characters and make your characters have less of those traits or you might get a pend" is an absolutely acceptable boundary for staff to have. some people would have an issue with this, but i think they'd be in the minority -- in my experience, the majority of the RP community wants to play nice with one another. (and honestly, if said site you're talking about is perhaps in a beta test or soft open, it's...at most rude but understandable to ask people to walk characters back before official launch if you're transparent about the reasoning.)

-> could give every member one(-two?) non-canon "influential character" slot(s?) for characters which have a quote-unquote power level just a step below canon characters. i'd make this an "as you register" benefit rather than a purchased one, since if fuckhands mcmike wants to start off as their kool hitman but also wants to make their barista later down the line, they're gucci.

-> oddly enough, this post made me think of an anecdote valka mentioned a long ass time ago (aka valk pls if you're lurking don't smite me if i paraphrase u wrong from a post i'm pretty sure you wrote on wicked wonderland in 2018) where she was talking about how cherry city riot/chaos theory was originally penned as a larger heaven vs. hell site which coincidentally also had open races. members really, really liked the open races bit and tended to favor the "slice of life" side and, after a while, the site plot shifted to accommodate, and the site ran for quite a few more years.

tl;dr bitch get to the point if the memberbase is showing a tendency to prefer political intrigue over slice of life, it could be beneficial to try and take a look at powerbalancing through the lens of "we're a political intrigue site with slice of life elements" in place of "we're a slice of life site with political intrigue elements". obviously, you shouldn't transform the site into something you wouldn't like enough to staff long-term (because nothing kills a site dead in the water like unmotivated staff) and if you really, really don't want to staff a site like that, hey -- that's 100% justifiable. but i think considering the tendencies members have shown in their characters & plotting in regards to power balancing might be beneficial and could certainly help out a lot in the pr section.
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don't have much to say because kuroya said exactly all of my thoughts. the truth is no one wants to play the disadvantaged character, and even underdogs aren't fun to play with if everyone's a step above/undermined because canons have to have their power respected. i used to make 'normal' characters, but what i found is that i get limited roles in plots and 0 plot relevance unless i make new characters who fit the characters i want to plot with. who are they? well, the ones you described: in position of wealth and power. 

when knowing 3 languages is the norm and underground connections more so, it's just powercreeping at that point. 3 languages to show your character isn't stupid and is smart, at least 1 martial arts to show they aren't helpless. otherwise, how else would your character be equal if a /fight scene/ comes along? if said character needs to be extra proficient, add one more martial art style. super soldier of a history sounds good too. 

honestly, it sounds like staffs should have nipped that in the bud long before it became a problem, since they're the ones responsible for setting the pace/theme/feel of the site. it's a tricky situation because in the worst case scenario, any sudden restrictions imposed could be seen as staffs using ooc powers to protect their ic characters' interests(which reads like it is anyway, for the canon's sake). so... instead of restrictions, yeah, encouragements for more normies would have been better? but again, the same trouble applies, because the root cause exists from the starting pool of characters/players.

unfortunate, but maybe that's what people wants to rp. that's the site culture now. can't stop this, can't help this. might as well spin the site to the equivalent of The inheritors.

...that might be a joke, but if there's a better solution than flimsy encouragements, i'd be interested to hear. 
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Since this whole thread was bumped again, I'mma put my two cents in once more. But, essentially, I do agree with all the points made and the options presented. (We're actually considering a number of the suggestions and then some given.) So thank you all for that! Seriously, got our brains working in how to incorporate and address, what have you. If it also helps, the site is in a sort-of beta test phase atm and not open to the general public yet so we could figure out what works, what doesn't, etc.

I think another of the issues ultimately being faced with this dilemma also, giving more context, is due to the fact the site and its overall plot relies on faction-based plots, conflict, alliances, etc. The canons are meant to be the leaders of these factions, which is why they intended to have all the influence/power among others. Yet a common trend we've started to notice is, as said, characters of similar pedestals without being affiliated with factions or not choosing to participate in such, thus making it hard to actually... progress the plot or conflict? There's this irony that despite all these characters being built, likely, to deal with the political intrigue part of the premise—they're mostly participative in just slice of life.

One of the things we're considering to remedy that is imposing some restrictions on unaffiliated characters later on—within reason, of course. And a potential thing we've discussed was placing a system that allows players to choose if their characters were open to heavy plotting, such as said overall site plot, that's connected with said character's "power level" basically. (i.e. if a player chooses to apply this system on their character(s) at any point in time, their character would be granted a numerical power/threat level that helps staff, other players, etc. gauge if this character would be effective in a plot, conflict, etc. while consenting that their character would be involved in heavy plotting / the political intrigue aspects.) In that sense; people can create "special" (for lack of a better word I'm a bit sleep-deprived atm) characters that have all these skills without it being an issue against canons, faction-based characters, etc. and pursue slice of life aspects, or the more intense political intrigue aspect. Similarly, "normal" characters could also choose to pursue SoL or political intrigue, while having agency on their advantages, disadvantages, etc.

Thoughts? Genuinely curious on suggestions, criticisms, etc tbh.
last edit on Jan 2, 2021 13:44:15 GMT by CEL



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yeah this. definitely sounds like it's an issue where the crux of the problem is that the staff are trying to pull in one direction where the members are another.

i...... honestly don't know what advice to really offer you in that regard.

in theory, it could be that some of these problems start to resolve themselves once you guys are..... not so much out of beta per se as much as it is "pieces are able to start moving on the site". even if that option is technically available now, people might not be in a place to be able to do that, either because they're lacking a key piece to set the events in motion (ie, if you have a criminal gang that's going to take over another gang but the first gang only has 2 members in it atm) or because they feel like they can't rock the boat out of the current stalemate (whether from a lack of a site event or just in-general not wanting to upset the status quo that is the current setting).

but that's also the best case scenario here - that your members actively want that political intrigue and just can't or don't know how to pull in that direction quite yet.

which is where the worst case scenario comes in - that what the community wants out of the site isn't the same thing as what you as the staff intended to do.

it could be that you have a significant portion of the community that genuinely like the setting you guys have come up with but largely want to do their slice-of-life style stuff. which would still make sense for why you're seeing the world you're seeing - as someone who used to run a marvel/dc site that was more of a slice-of-life setting, we still saw very precious few civilians + villains from the simple perspective that "it's a superhero site, people are going to make superheroes" irregardless of any other factor. to the same extent, you've set up the world where the vast majority of big players are on a higher-level playing field, so ofc that's what you're going to see more apps for even if the players have little interest in doing much with that.

the reason that's the worst case scenario is that, well. imo that's the one where there really isn't going to be anything y'all can do to fix it. the interest just isn't there, and trying to force the site into trying to be something it isn't is just going to lead to frustration for everyone involved (as i've said in other threads for why site plots are rare these days - it doesn't matter how many times you tell the members that they have to defeat the dragon or it'll burn the town, it doesn't matter what the rewards are for defeating that dragon or the consequences for not defeating it are; if the members aren't interested in defeating the dragon, they're not going to do it, and that's just reality).

alternatively, y'all could just be in what's essentially the "middle ground" situation - which is that the members do want that political intrigue but they just aren't interested in it under the terms y'all have laid out as staff.

personally, i think faction-based sites are very hit-or-miss; it's part of why i'm generally not a huge fan of them anymore. in my experience, most rpers tend to prefer being able to create their own groups over joining someone else's, and this is something that holds true whether you have member-based groups (like guilds for a vrmmo site) or site-wide groups (like three warring gods). part of it is probably tied up in that whole ~specialness~ factor (since imo if you're ~just that special~ then ofc you're going to be a leader of some faction and not playing second-fiddle to anyone else) and part of it is probably tied up in the creating something new vs just filling out a role (which dovetails into issues with creative control since imo the best way to make sure a gang is set up the way i want it to be + won't take a sudden left turn that leaves me uneasy with it is for me to just make it myself).

this also tends to dovetail rather poorly with site canons - since while i can definitely respect why you would want, say, the leader of the one (1) mafia gang you have ruling your city to be the best mobster ever or why you would want your chief of police to be the best cop on the force....... i also know that this is something that can sit really poorly. it's something that tends to bother me as a member since at best, it's a little annoying to know that my character who is supposedly a notorious pirate will never be able to even remotely stand on the same tier as the pirate king regardless of what either of us do; at worst, it ends up feeling super sus in situations where the staff have most of those canon positions since imo it then starts feeling like the staff are trying to use the excuse of "oh well they're the site canons" in order to get plot armor for why their characters are the best and mine aren't nearly as good. which that latter category definitely sounds like it would be something that would be popping up in my mind as a member if y'all started trying to nip out the powercreep you have going on, regardless of how justified y'all might actually be in that regard.

like i said..... i honestly don't know what the solution is for you guys. it's something i've never really figured out how to deal with myself since my "solution" was largely just to shrug loudly and shove myself back into my lil slice-of-life box that i preferred anyway. so to that regard, i'm definitely not really qualified in terms of offering solutions as much as....... "here's some perspective as an outsider and thoughts on how you probably got here so that y'all can have an easier time trying to figure out how to get out of here", as it were.

(maybe it'd be better for y'all to see if it's possible to open things up to be more member-based factions where their influence is more based on the prestige they earn via participation from other members + actual influence that they manage to get on the site or if it might be a good idea to see if something like hoenn's infamy system might be a better metric for y'all to use in terms of establishing who actually has influence on the site + the plot, but idk, this isn't my cup of tea for rp purposes, so i'm largely just spitballing here-)

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-> the power level thing sounds neat but i think you'd have to tie it to a requirement of active participation in the site plot or you'll just end up with the majority of people signing up for the system b/c they want the pretty bar under their user profile to be filled in and they like the idea of their character being involved in heavy plotting at some point, but gee wizz they're full up on SoL threads at the moment.

-> similarly, it also might be beneficial to require similar levels of site-plot involvement with site canons. lolgoodluck trying to moderate this in a fair way though. also, if you did this, you'd still run into the issue of "noncanon character placed on a pedestal equal to canon character" but if they're just using their character's mafiagangevilguy influence to meet cute for a ship i think that's? fine?? idk

-> the infamy thing kuroya mentioned is also real interesting. i remember on leap's revo a while back there was a system where if a character had an infamy above "X" level, threads outside of specific "safe zones" would have a chance of being "invaded" for lack of a better word by npcs -- so someone with a high level of infamy might find themselves being raided by police, or targeted by an assassin, or what have you in a thread. i didn't stick around long enough to see if that system works or not, but something similar might be cool and could at least be used to make sure ppl taking canons/influential characters actually participate in the site plot. you'd probably have to create a randomization system and make it public for people to not cry unfair tho -- and like all other systems, this ends up being more staff work.

-> i do think an official launch will help with this problem, because you'll get people coming in interested in the new shiny site who might be more interested in progressing the plot than someone who's been there for years and is settled in w/ people and character dynamics.
last edit on Jan 4, 2021 1:15:59 GMT by selkie
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One real simple way to do things is to use this bad boy

marvel-and-dc-world.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_(Power_Level)

Then just say "On this site no character has destructive powers that exceed wall level." Adjust according to taste, and let people build things freeform and make sure that it doesn't exceed that power (or trivialize too many other powers in case of defensive powers).

Basically freeform, but you herd the cats into the same box.
last edit on Jan 4, 2021 6:27:46 GMT by Sharp