Lookin' good!

-How familiar are you with Cyberpunk?
Fairly! Played a little bit of 2020, a bit more of RED, and a lot of 2077. Also enjoyed Edgerunners

-What do you think of when you hear “Cyberpunk”?
High tech, low life

-Going with your first impulse, your gut feeling, what would your first character be like?
Ex-corpo rediscovering himself
Eccentric fixer operating out of his old-fashioned Chinese restaurant

where have Japanese mentholated eye drops been my whole life?
my peepers finally feel like my own again

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I'll start:

Just to clarify before I ramble further about something probably inconsequential for most:: nothing here is meant to be a passive-aggressive dig at any site or even criticism of any particular approach! These are just musings mostly in praise of a detail I've come to really appreciate but hadn't really thought about consciously until recently. I'm also interested in others' thoughts and opinions on this so I look forward to any discussion that comes up.

I personally love it when AU fandom site skins don't feature any graphics of characters from canon. For me, the feeling of that disconnect from any existing body of canon characters and, by association, their stories is super neat when writing in an AU context. However, since it's obviously still the same world(building) adapted from the source material, being able to visually communicate the particular impression of an IP without overt reference to any pantheon of posterchildren becomes more reliant on capturing an overall design language that's often really difficult to pin down.

In some cases, implementing certain typefaces or colour schemes is already enough. If an IP has a lot of specific in-universe symbols and character-independent imagery then that can obviously help a lot too. Symbolism more generally and more subtle references might also be useful and I find all these things in combination can make the whole RP experience even more immersive and compelling (assuming everything else unrelated to the AESTHETIC have been done well). Particularly cool examples I can think of is when a site is made to look like an in-universe website which is a very specific concept not applicable to all cases.

Anyways, now that I've been looking under the hood, I've found there's an incredibly difficult balance to maintain. On one hand, I'm trying to commit to preserving that distance and disconnect I mentioned earlier in an almost "self-sufficient" sense of zero reliance of canon characters to represent an IP. At the same time, I also recognise that without any actual expertise/competence in graphical design, communicating a coherent and cohesive association with the source material becomes very difficult. I worry that in chasing one "ideal" or "vision", it becomes easy for a site to feel almost too detached from the given fandom. Naturally, what does/doesn't "work" operates on very much a case-by-case basis and there's obviously absolutely nothing wrong with AU sites that do make use of canon graphics! This is just one teeny tiny isolated non-exclusive interpretation of "fidelity" that I'm trying to observe and explore with absolutely no judgment towards others.

To skin wizards and players alike: what has been your experience of this? Is it even something you've ever really thought about? What have been some interesting methods you've implemented or seen to appropriately convey the vibe/aesthetic of a fandom site? 

I just have this mental image of the wild scramble for Baccano! FCs mere minutes after launch

It would be beautiful

I know xianxia is currently the more popular, higher-achieving, shinier, glitterier cousin nowadays but an old-school/classic "realistic" and more grounded wuxia site (at least in the context of the genre) would really satisfy the Jin Yong kick I've been on recently...
- official and player-made sects competing for MacGuffins (unique named swords, martial arts manuals, misc relics, etc)
- mod- and player-led events like imperial/government crackdowns on martial artists, temporary alliances, tournaments, conspiracies, banquets, heists, sect leader elections...
- flexible and room for a lot of character concepts besides the archetypal wandering hero (bandits, innkeepers, information vendors, bounty hunters, security/escort/("biaoju") companies, healers, unorthodox cult members/dropouts, scholars, beggars, monks, lawful evil government officials, etc)

Just a lot of trope-y goodness and simple stuff done well is all I ask!

Recent studies suggest academic writing to be the ultimate style-cramper.

"What did I mean by this?"

(me, reading my notes and scribbles from only a few months weeks days hours ago)

that orchestral rendition of On the Precipice of Defeat is just *chef's kiss*

Hey hey, back to share some more notes and thoughts on Skills.

For reference, I don't think Bleach really benefits from overly specific individual techniques (unlike, say, Naruto and Jutsu) besides their use as flavour. As such, "Skills" in this instance refers to families of expertise which in turn give mechanical context to a character's Actions in combat. If someone wants to give their favourite sword stroke or evasive footwork a name, sure -- I would even actively encourage it. I think this area benefits from being more freeform but to avoid custom flavour spiralling out of control, these individual techniques can just be expressions/applications of existing Skills.

As established in the previous post, a player generally has two Actions per combat, with exceptions for those initiating combat limited to one, and certain Skills functioning as Bonus Actions in select circumstances. For the most part, Actions are either:

• Proactive - used to initiate an interaction or change in state. Not necessarily offensive in nature which is why defining this Action as an "attack" may not always be helpful
• Reactive - used as a response to incoming attacks and comprises both blocking and evading

Not all Skills can be used both Proactively or Reactively and some Passive Skills may even be neither. In other cases, Skills might gain additional functionality upon Mastery, such as an Arrancar learning to use the ordinarily Passive Skill of Regeneration as a proactive Action to speed up the healing process or a Shinigami learning to employ Hadō/destructive spells more precisely or rapidly to defend incoming attacks as a response rather than solely as a proactive skill.

Mitigation of Response


Skills (Revised) (but still work-in-progress)


I feel like numbers work best when introduced to balance out certain factors in an existing system so my next steps will probably relate to comparison tiers/thresholds and the numbers and ranges involved in determining these outcomes. For skills specifically, I need to work some more on implementing limitations such as potential rulings against consecutive use but also avoiding overly specific cool-down periods. Other options for limitation might involve skills that Mitigate blocks being easier to evade and vice-versa. Not sure about this one but once the numbers get implemented, I think I'll have an easier time balancing (and finalising) the individual Skills.

My current concerns mostly revolve around whether or not this system is already too restricting. When I put myself in the shoes of a potential player, I don't feel too limited by things like some Skills having specific use-cases (not being able to use Hado reactively etc until Mastery or whatever) but am I just giving my own creation some extra leeway? I'm trying to be neutral and also cognizant of player/writer experience but I also know I can't please everyone. I personally don't feel this is a complicated system but I'm the one who made it.

Anyhow, thanks as always to those who check out these posts and I welcome any and all input. I am also considering making a Discord at some point to make short-form discussion and chats easier.

Wow okay, your post is a pretty serious deep dive into a more esoteric and philosophical side of forum RP. You bring up intriguing points and I hope I made it sufficiently clear that my observations on your approach aren't intended to be critical but merely comparative as I work towards developing my own system. If you don't mind, I would also like to keep things on topic and frame this discussion with the development of my site in mind while still addressing some of your points.

The degree of mechanical "intervention" is definitely something difficult to balance in the context of forum roleplay and collaborative writing (and I do think these are distinct things that happen to overlap in practice). Have you considered a more freeform experience with a heavier focus on the collaborative writing side of things, and maybe even moving away from settings where regulated combat interactions might be desirable or necessary? Many of your concerns seem to revolve around systems (in a general sense -- not necessarily referring to hard stats/mechanics) ultimately acting as a restricting or infringing force that can be at odds with your particular vision for storytelling. If narrative craft is your primary concern then I think you're right: there's little reason for Systems to exist because internal logic can be affirmed through communicating with like-minded writing partners who share similar expectations. Even systems intended to safeguard freeform collaborative writing aren't going to work as well as simple communication.

Sure, the same amount of communication should still be observed in sites that benefit from systems for combat -I'm not advocating for some kind of non-consensual PVP crunchfest- but the potential for different interpretations becomes much greater. I think combat inevitably gamifies a roleplay forum even when it manages to avoid unhealthy competition and one-upmanship. Gamification isn't necessarily a good or bad thing but it does mean there is now an inherent incentive to interpreting rules or, in their absence, your idea of "internal logic" and context in a manner that favours one's own characters and allies. This might be an honest mistake or it might be wilful misinterpretation and rule-bending. Regardless, it's difficult enough to maintain genuine neutrality in any collaborative writing context, let alone one in which combat is being simulated.

Anyhow, I'm very grateful for your input because through reading your thoughts and in articulating my own, I think I've now got a clearer picture of this project. I knew very early on that I wanted to avoid a completely freeform experience even though I value a sense of storytelling that isn't stifled by too many systems. I also feel strongly about the Bleach setting thriving in a roleplay context where combat (and conflict in general) is a part of the equation. Going for a middle ground might be a cop-out answer but I do think there's a way to implement engaging systems-based combat without numerical costs, distance/range-tracking, resource management and other minutiae completely tanking any sense of collaborative writing and storytelling. I don't think these two things need to be in opposition to each other.

For me, the activity I'm actually sitting down to engage in is still roleplay and collaborative writing is simply the medium rather than the activity itself. This combination results in a unique feeling of being both a (role)player in a "game" and as (co-)author of a story that isn't felt in more direct roleplay like D&D or purer forms of collaborative writing without the roleplay aspect. I guess my inclusion of combat shifts the vision for my project closer to that of a game, which in turn benefits from guidelines that offer substance and seek to define reasonable parameters for roleplay. Given this, it's probably better to reframe my system as serving and supporting roleplay, rather than interacting with storytelling.

Stats


Skills

For my next update/topic of discussion, I'll be working on revisions and standardising terms (especially for concepts like proactive/reactive, dodging and blocking, mitigation, etc). For now, I think I'm happy with the basic feel of these races and their specific skills. Shinigami seem to be generalists, Quincies present quite a resourceful skillset, whereas Arrancar have an oppressive and relentless playstyle. I may have a crack at exploring how personal/signature powers work but I think I want to prioritise stats and skills for now; once these can be more formalised, I can see how powers interact with them.

Thank you so much for this, @cyypher  and for taking the time to share your work. This is incredibly valuable information and has already given me a ton of ideas re: the pace and overall feel of combat! I think you've crafted something that works well as a simulation for pretty granular combat, especially in a Naruto setting or even a wider shonen context. I love it! But it's also probably far more complex than is needed for the project I have in mind (especially your mechanics on deception and fatigue). As a side note, your system reminded me of how well-suited Naruto is for crunchy RP since a lot of the in-world mechanics and systems can be gamified very easily (which also makes me jealous since Bleach tends to be more vague and inconsistent haha).

For now, my criteria for the system I'm developing are:

• Very light
• DEFINITELY diceless - I don't think factors of probability and randomness need to be considered at all
• Stats, if present, need to be the roundest numbers possible that aren't a pain to deal with. Also, the fewer stat variables in the first place the better
• Skills are super important for flavour and give different races distinct options for progression and specialisation. Techniques are just expressions of skill
• Wound/injury tiers or some other kind of damage approximation to avoid strict tracking of HP and damage formulae
• Clearly defined limit on actions per round/turn/post/etc
• Needs to actually suit the medium of Bleach and the wider Shonen/action format and meet typical expectations a prospective player might have regarding combat
• Combat itself should need zero input from staff i.e. no GM-ing, refereeing, etc.
• Most importantly: should aid/serve/support storytelling, not act as an inconvenience

Making Choices


Calculations


The Flow of Combat

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I think my next post will discuss some of my more specific ideas on stats and skills in more detail - especially the stuff about interacting with existing mechanics. Needless to say, there are still many details that need ironing out but I think I'm making good progress with the overall framework for my system. As always, this is very much a brainstorming and spitballing process so I appreciate any input!

Wow, firstly thanks for all the much-appreciated input so far! It looks like we're all mostly on the same page (which is reassuring -- I was never sure if I was just being too picky about a Bleach RP) but you've both also identified some details that I either took for granted, didn't know how to articulate, or just plain hadn't really thought about... which is exactly what I was wanting to achieve with this thread. 

As far as Style/Setting goes, Baroque is one part of it, I think? There's also (often contradictory) elements of gothic (in the literary sense), wabi-sabi, eclectic, punk, minimalism, brutalist, pop art, some Buddhist/Shinto art influences, Kamakura sculpture, etc. Like tenebrae , I think it's as much a "feel" as it is something visual although the latter is probably the most convenient thing to actually try and influence. I know a cool skin isn't going to save a shitty site or even encourage a particular style of storytelling but conveying the design language of Bleach both visually and narratively is (surprisingly) important to me. That means no instances of cheap fluorescent colour or metallic gradient borders. It's the least I can do.

I forgot to mention that I'm also very against Factions/Races that aren't relevant to the central conflicts of the site, OC or otherwise, especially if it'd mean an unnecessarily fragmented playerbase like Phantasm says. No moon people or busted science experiments or anything that serves just to stroke someone's ego and desire to be THE ultimate uniquely beautiful test tube snowflake. That also rules out pure Hollow as a meaningful race since they're too one-dimensional and probably function best as NPC mobs. As a whole, I agree with the sentiment that something very pared down will work best. Vaizards, if present at all, should be a privilege awarded through very significant character development. I also agree with Galeforce on factions not being too strictly enforced. There's definitely room for cooperation and depending on the situation, it may actually make sense for 2/3 factions to occasionally team up and prevent the remaining faction from advancing their goals unimpeded. Even on an individual level, there shouldn't be anything stopping the different races working together on a case by case basis.

Anyway, this might also be the right time for me to share some of my notes on the individual races' specific conflicts/issues/central problems. These thoughts will probably end up in some sort of racial/faction guide (after some serious trimming and condensing) and ties into some of my concerns about character creation and writing characters specifically for compelling conflict. There is a huge amount of brainstorming here so I've spoilered them for convenience -- read them at your own risk and only if you happen to be interested in my process!

• Shinigami

• Quincy

• Arrancar

I guess I'm glad that there's a general interest for fewer hard Mechanics (stats, etc) even when combat is part of the equation. The way I'd put it is I want mechanics to aid and support storytelling, not act as an inconvenience.

As for Progression, you both bring up interesting points. I do agree with Phantasm on milestone-only being a pain since constructing an argument for why a character deserves something every time you want achievements or developments to be acknowledged and rewarded just isn't fun -- we're RP'ing after all, not repeatedly defending a thesis. Going for a middle ground might be a cop-out answer on my part but "average" expectations on word count would probably be fine. Depending on a site's culture, relying on solely word count for progression/development might not be realistic anyway but I guess that's where some usage of milestone exp can come in handy to make up the larger chunks in progression. Speaking of BG, I agree that the way they balanced progression was perfectly fine and I wouldn't mind something along those lines. As the saying goes, imitation is the highest form of flattery and while I definitely don't want to rely on copying them, I also recognise that I don't need to reinvent the wheel and implement novel progression mechanics simply for the sake of being different. If there's a clear trajectory for a newcomer to become stronger, then that's a job well done.

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If it wasn't already obvious, my priorities for now are definitely Combat and Mechanics and Progression. I find the lore and miscellaneous writing pretty easy so it's honestly "just" the game-y part of the equation that I'm scratching my head about. In the meantime, if anyone else has more concrete examples of light combat mechanics working well even in conjunction with stuff like skills then please let me know! I will also be doing more research into potential systems and will share any interesting findings. As before, any other input is appreciated: suggestions, concerns, observations, anything.

For anyone new to the party, do excuse my giant and verbose posts so far. I guess my elevator pitch at present is "Bleach AU forum RP that's stylish, mature, pared down, light on mechanics with lore-friendly progression, encourages collaborative narrative conflict, features inter- and intra-faction/race interactions, isn't a pp measuring contest, is a healthy balance of both plot-driven and character-driven developments, and isn't cringe".

Cheers!

Hullo all

So after starting my rewatch of Bleach in anticipation of its return in October and basically falling (back) in love with the setting, I was surprised to see that there's a real lack of options for it for RP, even when a quick search here and on other forums/Discord servers shows there's at least some recent interest.

I've since dug out my old Bleach-related notes and ideas, contacted old RP buddies, and set to work on making a site. I know I can't please everyone but I do want to take into account some of the expectations and criteria others may have. I expect to do a lot of public spitballing and brainstorming so this place probably isn't going to function the same way as most interest checks. Instead, I'll be treating this thread as an extension of my drawing board and will be completely open to discussion. Even if you have no interest in this fandom, feel free to stick around and watch an aspiring site owner talk to himself (and hopefully others) and navigate some common problems! And for those interested in this project, please chime in with your suggestions, opinions, past experiences on comparable sites (running or playing), etc. While I certainly have a vision for what this site might be, I'd love to involve potential players in the development process so that it doesn't become tunnel vision.

Now, for the interesting stuff! At this early stage, nothing is set in stone but I've been making good progress with the basics like history/lore, the overall setup of the site (skins, layout, etc), and, more generally, the concept of the site as a whole. For a first (+ very long and rambly) post, here are some of the things I've been considering:

Style/Tone
I'll be honest... this is a pretty vague and intangible thing but I think most fans of Bleach will know what I'm trying to replicate here. I'm not sure how a site would encourage this in its tone and "culture" but stylishness and sophistication have always been a hallmark of the series. Sure, it's still a shonen involving fighting, power-ups, and evil spirits but it would be remiss to simply go for an edgy or overly grim direction. Is it mature optimism? A sophisticated cool factor that isn't just bigger lasers? Or is it intrinsically tied to Tite Kubo's artstyle and character design? Either way, I think it goes beyond just having an aesthetic site skin and well-dressed FCs.

Factions
Faction-based conflict practically writes itself in the Bleach universe. The contrast between the different races/factions is incredibly distinct while still leaving plenty of room for personal/character-specific conflict to emerge. Besides fighting, there might be politicking both within and between factions (temporary alliances, etc) with each member group vying to influence the outcome of site-wide events/plots. Problems I anticipate mainly involve mechanical and population balance and one faction being significantly more coordinated and/or high-impact than the others. On the other hand, I also anticipate a lot of people wanting to write as other factions specifically because of this lack of structure/organisation both ICly and OOCly so maybe it won't be that bad. Another potentially huge problem is toxicity but I'll touch on that in the Conflict-Heavy section since it's probably more relevant there. As an aside, a closed testing/beta period would probably only involve ONE faction (Shinigami/Gotei) to pressure test progression, mechanics, the site in general, etc.

Plot-Driven VS Player-Driven Plots and Events
I think there's a way to meaningfully implement both. Large scale/site-wide plots can work as a great backdrop and catalyst for growth. Even for those who have yet to reach the heights of influence, these site plots can function as a great way for people to feel less in their own bubble and more connected to a world and world state that they can affect. Naturally, players will also have their own personal plots for more focused character development which will be more organic and more specific to a character's themes. There are definitely times when only another player can satisfy an antagonistic role but I think there's something to be said about NPC villains as a source of site-wide fun.

Conflict
From past experience, some of my own favourite writing/RP moments have come from narrative conflict and situations where my characters are having their ideals challenged. This thread was a super interesting read in which a lot of people far more eloquent than I am articulated some common sentiments regarding conflict in collaborative writing/RP. Some recurring ideas and concerns from that thread that I share are navigating RPers who can't accept the idea of losing, toxicity, people losing perspective and confusing IC and OOC disagreements/negativity, negative encounters being harder to maintain, and so on. With that said, even with this immense minefield of potential problems, I still think collaborative conflict needs to be a central theme of the site and as a springboard for character growth.

As with most problems, more open communication (especially with communicating narrative goals) seems to be a good antidote for unwanted OOC conflict, even if it means a slight hit to the improvisational quality of RP. There's a way to balance this and, in the hands of a mature userbase, allow for compelling storytelling and character development. My current ideas include greater expectations placed on character creation e.g. clearer goals/ideals/flaws and how they might need to be challenged/addressed over a character's journey. However, this might come with the risk of more staff responsibility and an unwanted paternal atmosphere when it comes to policing character concepts. Luckily, I think Bleach provides a good framework already in terms of conflict fodder even at the stage of character creation that I'll discuss another time.

Combat and Mechanics
This is a tricky area. The ideal would be just enough to facilitate fair combat and give substance to flashy moments without being excessively crunchy and susceptible to players gaming the system. I understand that this is incredibly difficult to balance and I see the benefits of scrapping mechanics altogether in favour of something more freeform. The absolute worst scenario would be a toxic cesspool of one-upmanship and since this is still forum roleplay, any combat shouldn't be at the expense of collaborative writing. Mechanics would probably need to be very light and serve more as guidelines since anything too far on the side of simulation means more crunch BUT too loose then everything is left too open to interpretation and, in turn, disagreement.

In terms of flavour, I think stats and skills would add a lot to character expression and progression (discussed in next section) and as an aid to storytelling. But is that just adding another layer to this already scary and unwieldy onion? Fine-tuning the balance and interactions between stats, skills, and mechanics is really the business of game design. I'm a (second-rate) writer so for the sake of my own sanity and the workload of any potential moderators onboard, minimising the need for staff interference and mediation would be great. Mechanics as a whole probably needs the most consideration and workshopping so I welcome all input on this topic!

Progression
Besides being a good incentive to promote longevity and appealing to the brain's love of seeing numbers go up, a defined system of progression is a good way to illustrate growth. This would ideally be a resource earned from the recognition of character milestones and overcoming obstacles rather than a conversion from word count. This could then be spent on improving stats and skills (with the highest tiers of mastery requiring a request, for example). This fits nicely into the wider shonen concept of starting off weak and unskilled before finding your own niche and becoming a force to be reckoned with -- perfect for Bleach. On the other hand, I'd go so far as to say a well thought out progression system could completely replace hard numbers like stats and skills but as with the previous section on mechanics, this is another crucial part of the site that deserves comparatively much more thought.

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And that's "all" from me for now! I will continue to post ideas and concerns throughout development but as I've mentioned before, I welcome any and all discussion, suggestions, and advice. Thanks in advance and looking forward to hearing from the wider community.