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aliasLOVELORN, LL, LORN
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It's actually funny that you should raise that one, because it's generally agreed upon in the writing community to not be very good advice. I hesitate to call it terrible, but the modern advice in general is to use "said" and avoid too many alternates, as they call attention to the word itself over the dialogue, and frequently add nothing that you cannot achieve through story beats or dialogue style.
snip
This is, I think, where I want to tread a bit more delicately. Let's be upfront that I never insinuated that using longer or shorter sentences said anything about the quality of writing: introducing that argument feels like a strawman. Advising on the purpose and effect a long sentence has on a reader does not necessarily mean using them or not means it is emblematic of bad writing. In fact, most writers will use both long and short sentences, because they achieve different effects. Like, grab a book, any book, so long as it has an action scene. Compare the action scene to another one, and then particularly the length of sentences for action segments.

You'll note they almost always use shorter sentences than otherwise.

Do you not suppose there's a reason for that?

For the rest of your post, it kind of feels like you're not really directing it at me. My argument has never been to shove writing feedback down everyone's throats, so I don't get why you're so up in arms over that. I understand you feel writing is subjective and it'd be way too difficult to provide feedback, but there is a profession that deals with it entirely, and I wouldn't feel comfortable putting editors down as a bunch of people who do nothing but have opinions about writing.

first of all i want to apologize if you felt like i was "up in arms": really genuinely did not mean to give that impression and i sincerely thought we were having a good conversation here; i genuinely meant everything sincerely and didn't mean for anything to come off as an attack towards your character.

i wanted to clarify that i didn't mean to "put editors down as a bunch of people who do nothing but have opinions about writing" and that i don't feel that writing is 100% subjective and "it'd be way too difficult to provide feedback"; i said that people (referring to rpers specifically, as opposed to professionals in the field) might feel as if it's difficult to provide advice on writing and you asked why, so i provided some reasons on why people might feel that way.

i brought up the "said" bit just as an example of a common piece advice that's still peddled in writing workshops i've frequented irl and still populates blog posts on "good writing" in 2024. when i was newer to writing i might have given it to other rpers if asked because i thought it was "good advice" because i saw it so often. things like that have made me more hesitant to give advice in the past !

i think it's indubitably true that we can learn from each other and give advice to each other to grow as writers; that's not something i'm disputing, and i'm sorry if that's how it came across !
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I do not want to put you on the spot or anything, and I'm glad you came out to answer my question on why we afford so little attention for the writing itself! But I'm curious: what experiences have you had that make it difficult (I assume that's what you meant) to give feedback on writing itself?

There's writing clubs, editors, agents, and other professions/communities where it's rather normal and expected to give advice on writing, so I'd love to get some insight why it's kind of...taboo? in the roleplaying world. One of my fondest recent roleplaying experiences was on Patisserie, where one of my roleplay partners took the time to message me with some feedback on my writing, and I kinda feel we should normalise letting others know what we like about their writing. And we should normalise asking others how we can make our writing more interesting.

Or even just have threads dedicated to generic writing advice, like when to use long sentences, what's the function of the first line, how to use beats, or whyever should we tell rather than show.
what i mean about it being difficult to give feedback on writing itself is that writing itself at a certain point becomes subjective/based on style; a lot of writing advice is subjective and can't be applied universally. there's the obvious stuff like "have good grammar" or "spell things correctly", of course, but then what about people who break these rules to create runons or fragments to convey certain states of minds (like disorientation, a sense of pressure/speed, etc.)? some people will tell you to be more descriptive in your writing and add more detail (no longer the yellow dress but the voluptuous yellow dress, bulging with the sheer volume of ruffles and lace painstakingly added to it for example) hemingway, on the other hand, is famous for being succinct. one of the most infamous pieces of writing advice i think most people here have heard is to not use the word "said" and instead use, like, "shouted", "exclaimed", "vocalized", whatever: but what if said works better for the sentence/the characterization/etc.?

you bring up "generic writing advice" like when to use long sentences: but just like one person can have an opinion of when to use long sentences, what about writers whose styles don't use long sentences at all? is their writing bad? not necessarily. writing is an art: therefore subjective. there's no rubric that we can meticulously check off that'll fit everyone's style and preference. we can even narrow this down into more specific critique: "show versus tell"/"tell versus show", in your example. when it comes to rp, some people prioritize efficiently communicating things to their partners over showing it, for example; it may be better writing for someone to describe 600 words of their character attacking an enemy in an site-wide event thread with their inner thoughts and turmoil, for example, but it would be easier for their partners if they simply outlined their character attacking in consideration of other rpers in the thread having to read each other's posts, potentially on a event time limit of a day or two. is either more objectively valuable in roleplay?

obviously part of improving as a writer is knowing when to take advice and when to disregard it while developing your own personal style but that's basically what i mean when i say it can be hard to give advice to people because writing can be subjective.

more than that: i think that it's important to note that rp is not necessarily a writing club or a profession. obviously a lot of people take rp seriously and that's not a bad thing, but there are people who think of rp as just a hobby and way to wind down; it's not something that they're trying to become the "best at". it's like gaming: some people want to improve and focus on it, but that doesn't mean you need to walk up to every single person playing a game and tell them, "hey, you should actually be doing it this way instead, here are some tips to improve". it's one thing to tell people what we like about their writing (especially since i wouldn't consider compliments necessarily "advice" strictly speaking) and another one to tell them what we think is bad and what we think they should improve on. this is especially true when you start out: unsolicited criticism can be a reason why a lot of beginners drop their hobbies. but if you want criticism, you can just ask: here, elsewhere, otherwise: i've never seen that being a "taboo" LOL and i've been rping actively in different forms (1on1, forum, discord, skype, jcink, invisionfree, icyboards, proboards, ttrpgs, mmorpgs, etc.) for a decently long time, i feel like; 11+ years.

i agree w/the fact that we should normalize asking other people for advice about how we can make our writing more interesting; like i said in my reply, i try to reach out to writers i admire regularly myself !! however, i don't think people should feel obligated or feel like they're expected to give advice when rping, especially if it's not even mentioned in the site premise or anything. sometimes i want to drop off a post and write about my oc making mad money or regretting their life decisions; i don't want to feel like i'm sitting at my english literature class diligently reviewing my peer's essay. generally speaking i think it's bad to say that anyone "should" partake in their hobby a certain way.

tl;dr writing subjective so no advice is 1sizefitsall, not everyone wants advice or to become the next top rper (tho i personally would like to improve LOL), and i don't think anyone should feel like they have to get or give criticism if they don't want to.

edit: that being said i wouldn't necessarily agree that the rp community "affords so little attention" for the writing itself; i mean, the hobby itself entirely revolves around writing. there's no forum rping without posting/writing; i can agree that maybe there aren't a lot of communities that are explicitly focused on improving as writers when it comes to rp sites versus like, collaboratively telling a story ("character-driven storytelling" being a keyword i've seen in nearly all of the sites' synopses or rules that i've seen recently as a serial site lurker), but that doesn't mean that people aren't focused on writing or actively trying to improve as a writer iykwim.
last edit on Apr 5, 2024 22:13:32 GMT by lovelorn
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need a site that's focused on writing, on improving
I've always thought it kind of weird that we have a lot of resources for finding PFPs, code snippets, layout help, et cetera et cetera, but virtually no resources whatsoever to help people on the road to writing. We also discuss layouts and skins and get feedback on all sorts of things...but not the writing itself.

Why is that


As for "focused on writing", there's Tumblr blogs (I know) that encourage developing the craft, but also subreddits. You could take a gander at those, perhaps?
tips for "good writing" is a lot more subjective than providing accessibility features in your skin for ex. imo. i see a lot of advice/discussion around subjects of writing (like opener ideas, ways to develop your character, etc.) but it's harder to give advice on the actual writing itself in my experience: and a lot of the time i feel like people don't want, like, the entire community to pile on them and give them feedback publicly on their writing vs. just asking their friends/rp partners in the dms.

personally i try to improve my writing via reading a lot and from varied sources, which i know is not like, the most helpful or revolutionary advice, but when it comes to rp specifically i also read a lot of the writing of rpers who i admire or the writing of rpers my friends admire (like even if i'm not on the site, if a friend says they're really liking a thread i go over and sneak a peek at it). and then try to break it down. although it's also kind of hard because i can be kind of shy one-on-one i also try to reach out to rpers i admire and ask them about their process/their writing/etc. directly even through (possibly kind of freaky?) cold dms LOL, especially if there's things about their style i want to emulate (syntax, flow, etc.). i think communication is key overall though and generally esp nowadays i try to communicate with my rp partners on any site about what they like and what's working for them/get critique when i want it if i can, plus just asking my rp friends (even if i don't rp with them) about their opinions a lot too.
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by the time i was old enough to hit the 18+ requirements on rp sites they started raising it to 21+ and 25+ . what are they going to raise it to when im 25. 30??

I mean, it's one thing to age-gate one's site to 18+, and maybe raise the bar a little higher for personal comfort reasons, but I swear that sometimes, the hobby of forum RPing seems to have become like that Twitter meme about how "I think kids should be banned from the Internet altogether, because the fact that I'm at risk from hearing a 14-year old's opinion on something is a violation of my human rights."
honestly as someone young enough to be regularly age-gated and someone who was regularly age-gated from communities (even if not explicitly, there are a lot of rpers who won't write with/will publicly vocalize not being comfortable writing with people of a younger age) i don't mind people setting boundaries/having an age preference for their hobby but it seems obvious to me why forum rp doesn't get a lot of new blood if there's not really a whole lot of places for younger rpers to start out
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love canons. love them. operating off of the definition of canons in the original post where it says we're talking about, like, faction positions and not panfans !! anyways here's the rundown on my thoughts:

  • do i like playing canons: hell yes.

  • why: canons inherently link you to other characters/give you connections that you wouldn't have otherwise; taking a royal family canon will automatically give you family members + relationships + a job + some level of influence etcetera, which is not only great if you want 2 start w/o begging all of your friends to come join you on a site but also not flail around, plotless, at the beginning of a site.

    obviously having a canon can suck if your canonmates aren't communicative/no one even upholds canon activity reqs anyways/you get bad vibes from other members/etc. but i mean... if your rp partners in general aren't communicative/active/have bad vibes you're going to have a bad time anyway. i'm also a fairly active/outgoing rper when i commit, so activity reqs and reaching out to people doesn't bother me. i'm not going to lie and say i've always been the best canon rper but i definitely have fun doing it and i try 2 improve each time in communication/plotting depth/etc. i promise

  • are they necessary: it depends on the site and the plot. for most slice-of-lifey sites i don't really see why they're necessary: i mean, sure, you can have the mayor of smallville in your animal crossing rp, but is the mayor of smallville going to actually be doing anything mayor-y in rp? if no, then you probably don't need it. if you're rping a game of thrones type rp where everyone is fighting for their lives (politically) though i would say yes please have canons.

    in my opinion though i don't think we need as many canons as we usually have in most sites that i've noticed recently; i think a major complaint i have about most sites nowadays is that they're too big in terms of their setting (which includes number of factions/canons/etc.) and then characters are too scattered and you end up with, like, 3/4 active characters in a faction/country/city/etc. which can be kind of hard to plot around.

  • do i imagine my ocs as actual people or cartoon characters: i could not in good conscience give any middle-aged man other than an anime bishounen a name like lucifer bloodmark the slayer and naming a character something like bibbidi bobbidi is cute and charming when she's a whimsical anime witch with pink hair but damning when you try to match it to the face of, like, taylor swift
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for me, here's a few things i do/want to continue doing:

  • i love love love the idea of relationship trackers and i love reading them even more but updating them is hell for me and i know i won't update it even if i promise myself i will, so instead i've circumvented this by making instead a list of characters that my character is close enough to be relevant to/for them to have an opinion of my character and then i go and i ask the rper for an IC sentence or two of their character's perspective on my character/their relationship with my character. this is way more succinct than having a paragraph describe their relationship to me and way more engaging than having just "they're friends that met since xyz"; it's also just fun to hear about outside perspectives of your character so just win-win-win.

  • i try giving all of my characters a "thing" (and everyone starts booing because i talk about this in literally every 'character things' thread). basically just a shtick/trope/archetype that i try to lean into: like a verbal idiosyncrasy or a more like, anime-exaggerated "thing" that makes them larger than life and more memorable (like a propensity for tsundere-style violence, extreme long-windedness, a habit of making "people die when they are killed"-style one-liners etc.)

  • naming conventions. i cannot lie i love rule of cool/funny names even when they give things away and i'm recently obsessed with giving my characters, ace attorney style names or just names that are alliterative or just "less realistic" in nature; stuff like naming a mysterious character "mi styrii" or giving a captain character the last name obvious. i think it's also generally helpful for plotting too if your character has a name that's interesting or memorable right off the bat w/getting people initially interested/clicking on your profile/etcetera !!!
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i think most people on pixel perfect have been rping for a while now, and i'm curious about what tips, tricks, & tidbits that you use in rp: not necessarily things that you would recommend everyone do (though it can totally do that), but things that you do to supplement your posting/help you with your character/etcetera. i'm really looking for anything from "i try to make all my characters have at least two hobbies" to "i color code my tracker by order of importance" or anything like that !!!

disclaimer: not really looking for the types of tips and tricks that are like "use a spellchecker" or "or "back up your writing so it doesn't all vanish if jcink/proboards decides to go down the second you click post". stuff more off the beaten path pls ... !!!!
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i don't re-app ocs because whenever i try i always end up comparing them to the original iteration/their plots to the original plots and getting upset that they're not as complex, like, two weeks in LOL, but i re-app canons because the canons i'd be interested in playing are usually ones that have a narrative uniquely suited to rping on panfans usually in a meta sense. i'm not usually someone who rps on panfans over original sites, so usually it's something specific to the medium of a panfan instead of the char itself (bc if it's the latter i'd rather write fanfic LOL) that makes me app and re-app.

an example is dan-oh from extraordinary you (webcomic + kdrama): in the plot, she's a "character" in a story who has no control over her actions for the scenes the "author" writes, and can only act on her own free will during the unwritten interval between scenes, and the author ports her over to different stories/reuses her character, so she can enter new "settings"/genres, which is a setup that works perfectly for a panfan setting.
last edit on Jan 20, 2024 0:30:35 GMT by lovelorn
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ive been emailing my uni admin about the spring semester and they keep on asking me for info i've already provided in previous emails that i then forward to them again and it's got me feeling like this

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as someone who's fc'd fcs with little to no art (shahrazad from trinity blood, marco adriano from gangsta, etc.), old fcs (trigun pre-release of stampede, etc.), fcs from just manga/manga-style art (old CLAMP etc.), unpopular fcs (anyone know cecil from escape devildom, etc.?) and has been rping on public/private/semi-private rps for years and years, i've never had problems with anyone wanting to write w/me because of my fc.

it's true that people won't be as interested in your character if you use something that's unpopular/not 'pretty' compared to a popular/pretty fc with lots of art, but that's just true abt anything 'popular' - when i put my char in an unpopular location/faction, i know that they're not going to get as much attention as a character in a popular faction or accessible location, or when i don't talk about my character in public chats or the discord, i know they're not going to get as much attn as they would otherwise. people won't reach out to you because of your fc, but that doesn't mean no one's going to write with you at all, esp if your character has a canon/subcanon position. it just means that you have to put an effort 2 reach out to get more plots.

fc is an element of rp that i consider the same as any other element of rp. there are a lot of ways to get plots/plots of threads, and fc is one of them. talking about your character publicly/integrating with the community is another, reaching out and plotting w/other people is 1 more, putting your character in a position where they're related to others via wanted ads/canon positions is 1 more, etc. etc. etc.. not choosing to do any of them doesn't mean you won't get plots at all, but it definitely means it won't be as easy/people won't come to you as much, so it's something that i take into consideration when i make a character. if i want people to come to me/don't want to reach out to people to plot as much, i'll put all the things i can to appeal to other rpers in my app, from nice formatting to a popular fc.

because our hobby is literally rp, people's impressions of you/your character will be based off of these things, and yes, people will judge you from your fc, but i don't consider it any different from people judging your writing/your formatting/how you present yourself in public spaces/etc.

when it comes to me personally (finally getting to the FC confessions part of this thread LMFAO), i do judge people off of their fcs. i assume older fcs (like old manga/anime) are from people that are older (which was relevant when i was <18 and people were like, i personally do not want to rp w/a minor even if the site allows it). if someone's gfx are resized wrong/uncropped, i assume that they don't have a lot of experience w/this kind of rp. i usually find that people who have fcs who don't really "match" the rp (for example using inuyasha in his original outfit/form in a modern london rp) tend to be less detail-oriented/strong on "immersion" than the ones that try to pin the vague time period/setting of a site down w/their fc, and i find that a lot of the rpers who put a lot of effort into their gfx (adding effects, filters, etc.) also are usually the ones who try something new with their writing (typography in posts, format, perspective, prose/poetry etc.)